IITC... let me check Cardoe: sorry, it was 0.6 robtaylor: Involve the community also,I'm psyched about david writing up the DeviceKit plans. From what i've heard this should sort out some serious problems with hal robtaylor: acknowledge the bug reports robtaylor: there's simple errors that have attached patches that are ignored Cardoe: its not really at that stage yet DeviceKit? jet an other kit ? robtaylor: PolicyKit isn't at the stage where distro feedback is applicable? Cardoe: I do think it was a mistake to have hal depend on policykit before it was really ready though robtaylor: and it's not at the stage where multiple heads can be involved in the design process Cardoe: umm, well we've certainly talked about it a lot in gnome Except it's suppose to be a DE neutral usable kit and would make sense that some of these discussions happen on the ML for PolicyKit Cardoe: having too many voices at design stage just kills a project ime robtaylor: the issue I have is all the code is developed and thought up on 1 person's desk.. it's development in the dark. robtaylor: So anything over 1 is too much Cardoe: best to get something working that at least people can use, then throw open the doors robtaylor: and let the distro maintainers worry about it without documentation or without solid code Cardoe: waoh, way too early for distro guys robtaylor: except it's REQUIRED DEPEND Cardoe: its still getting to teh point where is usable by developers Cardoe: no it isn't if you want to use GNOME, it's required to use HAL nope robtaylor: show me a GNOME install that doesn't use HAL at least, i've never built hal with policykit support robtaylor: I'm talking about HAL robtaylor: and for a while, PolicyKit was required by HAL Cardoe: nope, its still disableable at configure currently yes robtaylor: either way. I'm discussing the design of the "new" HAL as well. Cardoe: like i say, i think t was a mistake to make configure --with-policykit by default Cardoe: umm, well actually alot of people have chatted about these problems and a new design robtaylor: show me how to build a GNOME without HAL robtaylor: show those discussions to me on the HAL ML robtaylor: or in some public space Cardoe: david's just been a bit ginger about discusing it on the wide open interwebs cos people will jump down his throught Cardoe: like you did *throat If it's opened sourced, let it be opened then That's my issue Cardoe: i dunno what you're talking about 'build a GNOME without HAL' ? Why not just state it's a closed source Red Hat project Cardoe: its not even written or started robtaylor: HAL is a distro maintainer's problem... You said it's not. Cardoe: its just davidz finally writing up some thoughts we've all had for a long while Cardoe: policykit dannyK summed it up best. Cardoe: I feel the same with the hole PolicyKit and some other projects ... I hate this "redhat-in-the-dark-development-and-then-force-other-to-use-it" like i said, *several times* policykit is not a required depend for hal right now... And Red Hat touts it as necessary all over Slashdot and their website. actually, i think its more like 'GNOME do some stuff, don't talk about it with KDE devs cos they always say we're crap, release it, kde uses it' Cardoe: mail sent its not redhat, PolicyKit was pretty well discussed at gnome boston summit robtaylor: sure, of course... *sigh* and at guadec, iirc ervin: well, I'm notblaming all kde devs, but there is that faction out there ervin: i have been to Akademy as a fd.o guy robtaylor: well, no idea but for the hardware I'm supposed to be the one to struggle with it and I was just happy to have something like hal around the corner robtaylor: sure I remember you in dublin ervin: :) (you probably don't remember me though, we didn't interact much) robtaylor: How can you claim something to be a fd.o project when it's ONLY discussed at GNOME events and in GNOME places? tried to get davidz there too, would have been awesome he always has good excuses, that's frustrating ;) The first line of fd.o site says... freedesktop.org is open source / open discussion software projects working on interoperability and shared technology for X Window System desktops. open discussion I don't see much open discussion You yourself are promoting closed discussion, robtaylor ervin: yeah, he hardly makes it to GUADEC either :( robtaylor: that sucks :-/ And so much for interoperability when it's only designed and discussed by GNOME people. Cardoe: I'm promoting quiet work during the hard bits at the start PolicyKit is at 0.7 now And you're still prompting "quiet work" Cardoe: and completely rearchitected when will it be open discussion? after 1.0? Cardoe: about now i'd expect so where's the open discussion? Ouch! 0.7 changes everything again? See, if more then 1 person was involved in the original design and there was an open discussion... * ervin wonders what's in the pipe for a rearchitected hal though Cardoe: umm, it just happened on the mailing list You wouldn't have to throw it all out and start all over ervin: i can tell you a bit robtaylor: smoke and mirrors details on the ML no real info robtaylor: would be cool Many GNOME projects blog about their stuff before their 0.1 release Cardoe: read the docs? make some useful comments on teh design? rather than jumping down someone's throught they post their 0.1 release publicly, they get feedback robtaylor: The docs were just posted Cardoe: umm, if you were follwing git you'd have seen them Cardoe: it wasn't a code dump over the last 4 days. * ervin hands s/throught/throat/ to robtaylor ervin: ok, so major problems at the moment with hal is that actually most of the linux hald backend duplicates udev agreed ervin: also, both hal and udev are heavy starting up cos they need to poke all of sysfs and populate their dbs * kenvandine has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) yup ervin: kay one told me hal kan take a number of days starting up on big-iron ! * kenvandine (n=ken@foresight/developer/kenvandine) has joined #hal urgh robtaylor: clearly discussing the changes first didn't happen.. just a bunch of commits over 4 days. Glad we had some time to review that code and provide feedback before it was released into an official release. But then again feedback was provided on the ML and David himself says that he has not checked any of that. I expected it bad, but not *that* bad ervin: addons are all a bit crap, one process per device rather than per device type (my singletons work helps, but most haven't been ported) ervin: hal is process that only exists for querying a database and in hald and udevd right now, the major performance killer is indexing well, also to forward events * robtaylor thinks he's given enough hints ;) ervin: well yes, from udevs *udevd so think, on-disk db thats just checked at startup, dbus service activation for starting services for handling different kinds of hardware sounds nice now i may be wrong, i'm waiting for david's write up to see his current thinking, but thats my take on the new plans ok Cardoe: yeah, david could do better, but somepeople need to just shut out noise to get big complex problems done Cardoe: it think making 'redhat-v-the-world' is a bit disingenuous robtaylor: how many times have we just followed him into scrapping everything and starting over. Cardoe: umm, dunno, how many? robtaylor: Mandriva is upset, SuSE is upset, Ubuntu is upset, Gentoo is upset robtaylor: Arch Linux is upset Cardoe: with what? Sounds pretty close to Red Hat vs world robtaylor: the process robtaylor: well there was HAL 0.4 that was scrapped to HAL 0.5 now we're scrapping it again when you let one person design something, you get Microsoft Cardoe: its called learning as we go it's called getting feedback from knowledgeable people Cardoe: hal is far from designed by one person anyway, I'm going to lunch. I'll be back after lunch. Cardoe: i certainly have had no problems making input on major design decisions * croepha (n=croepha@74-142-166-232.dhcp.insightbb.com) has joined #hal Ubuntu is upset? i missed that one :) Cardoe: i'm off for the evening now, so enjoy lunch :) hey sjoerd: heh, yeah, i though Cardoe was being a bit OTT fwiw keybuk is on the edge of his seat for DeviceKit sjoerd: you're Ubuntu? fine. then it was the Debian guy Heh No i'm a debian guy Cardoe: sjoerd is the debian guy Michael Biebl is also a debian guy, but he isn't upset as far as i can tell :) i am using pmount with hal, and KDE media, i was wondering how i could ass a default umask to pmount when it is used with hal? Cardoe: and keybuk is the ubuntu main architectural guy sjoerd: read his latest e-mail to the ML s/ass/set robtaylor: Danny is the SuSE guy and has stated he's upset. robtaylor: I'm the Gentoo guy and I'm clearly not happy. That part is clear :) YaY for Gentoo either way I'm off to lunch later :) later